Stones Cry Out

Wow Doug, I knew it was a large number, but almost 5.5 million... It breaks my heart.

I think reasonable people can disagree on the pros or cons of war, but how can we disagree with the cold hards facts of 5.5 million deaths of unborn children in the last 3 or so years.

Unfortunately, I'm sure many will still find ways to diminish it.

American Deaths (each cross represents 5,000 American deaths or fraction thereof) (1) (2)
A visual comparison of the number of American deaths attributed to war vs. To abortion (as of 11-8-05)
American Revolution (25,324)
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War of 1812 (2,260)
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Mexican War (13,283)
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Civil War (498,332 Union, 364,821 Confederacy = 863,153 total)
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Spanish-American War (2,446)
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World War I (116,516)
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World War II (405,399)
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Korean War (54,246)
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Vietnam War (56,244)
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Panama Invasion (23)
+
1991 Gulf War (148)
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2003 Iraq War (3,480 as of June 2, 2007 per U.S. DoD)
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Legal Abortion 1973-present (45,951,133+ & counting AS OF NOVEMBER 2005)
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Mortality Rates from Nine U.S. Wars
THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR
(1775-1783)
Battle deaths — 6,824
Other deaths — 8,445
Total deaths — 15,269
————————-
THE WAR OF 1812
(1812 - 1815)
Battle deaths — 2,260
Other deaths — unknown
Total deaths — 2,260
————————-
THE MEXICAN-AMERICAN WAR
(1846-1848)
Battle deaths — 1,733
Other deaths — 11,550
Total deaths — 13,283
————————-
THE CIVIL WAR
(1861-1865)
Union battle deaths — 140,414
Union other deaths — 224,097
Total Union deaths — 364,511
Confederacy battle deaths — 74,524
Confederacy other deaths — 59,297
Total Confederacy deaths — 133,821
————————————-
THE SPANISH-AMERICAN WAR
(1898)
Battle deaths — 385
Other deaths — 2,061
Total deaths — 2,446
———————–
WORLD WAR I
(April 6, 1917 - November 11, 1918)
Battle deaths - 53,513
Other deaths - 63,195
Total deaths - 116,708
————————–
WORLD WAR II
(December 7, 1941 - August 15, 1945)
Battle deaths - 292,131
Other deaths - 115,185
Total deaths -407,316
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KOREAN WAR
(June 25, 1950 - July 27, 1953)
Battle deaths - 33,629
Other deaths - 20,617
Total deaths - 54,246
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VIETNAM WAR
(August 4, 1964 - January 27, 1973)
Battle deaths - 47,752
Other deaths - 10,903
Total deaths - 58,655
———————————
WORLD WAR III - Abortion: battlefront USA
Deaths to Date
(January 22, 1973 - Present time)
2 1/2 unborn infants die every minute.
150 die every hour.
3,600 die every day.
25,200 die every week.
108,000 die every month.
1,310,400 die every year (52 weeks).
6,552,000 die every five years.
13,104,000 die every ten years.
19,656,000 die every fifteen years.
- in the United States ALONE. Not even considering places like China, where more abortions have happened than anywhere else. http://www.abortionfacts.com/statistics/world_statistics_china.asp

Abortion will never get even a slice of coverage given to the Iraq War because it's not politically fashionable to call out pro-choicers on their murderous ideology.

Indeed. Hence, getting the word out by other means. Put that graphic on your blog and see what kind of reaction you get.

5.5 million American children have died during the Iraq war? Does the statistic count blastocysts as "American Children?"

Let's say it did. In fact, let's say for the sake of argument fully half of the number is not included in the statitics cited. That would still leave 2.75 million. Is 2.75 million dead since 20003 a significant number?

Another way of looking at it is that it represents the artificially cutting short of the normal life expectancy of those 5.5 million, all by the same means. If the deaths due to war are abhorrent, again, a little perspective is in order.

If blastocysts count as "American Children" then that statistic is inflated. It's really just an appeal to emotion. What are the real numbers?

If you're saying that, absent the abortion, absolutely zero of those blastocysts would have been born normally, then you have a point. Otherwise, a life cut short is what it is, just as in war.

And, as "plodon" pointed out, even if you argue that fully half were blastocysts -- heck, if 80% of them were, leaving the number at 1 million -- you still wind up with a death toll that is almost 300 times the number of US dead in Iraq. This still mightily undercuts the argument of pro-abortionists who get up in arms about the number of war dead.

At this point, I am saying that if blastocysts equate to "American Children" in that figure provided in the original post, then it's an exaggeration. The bigger the number, the more conservatives can stir themselves up about it. A bigger number is a bigger emotional appeal. Six million Jews were executed in the holocaust. 5.5 million is a number that approaches holocaust proportions and so conservatives can tell themselves that a holocaust of babies has happened in the about the same 4 year period as WWII/Iraq. Why not simply post the actual number and have done with it instead of making appeals to emotion?

There are 3 messages prior to yours, and now this is the 4th, that seeks to come up with a number for you that is non-emotional, and allow for discussion of the underlying issue of perspective. You've been asked of 2.5 million or even 1 million is small enough for you to consider non-emotional. I'll go even further and ask if just 1 tenth, 550,000, is a reasonable number for you. Honestly, 9 out of 10 abortions are simply not blastocysts, so can we start there?

The continued response of, "Well, but 6 million is emotional" is no longer really a response; it's more of a mantra now.

"You've been asked of 2.5 million or even 1 million is small enough for you to consider non-emotional."

Where do you get 2.5 million from? You are just making this number up, correct?

"I'll go even further and ask if just 1 tenth, 550,000, is a reasonable number for you."

Again, you are pulling this out of thin air, right? What I am saying is, find the actual number. The actual number of abortions is the "non-emotional" one. The "reasonable number" for me is the actual stat, not an inflated one.

Why not simply post the actual number and have done with it instead of making appeals to emotion?

You're kinda operating under the assumption that the figure in the original post included blastocysts. Did it? I don't know, do you? It kinda seems like you sorta took that assumptive ball and ran with it.
As for appeals to emotion - well...that has been brought up before in regards to abortion, the insinuation being that reason has obviously been tossed out the window in favor of gut-level reponses.
Yes, the figure of six million Jews (Of course the Nazis "exterminated" a whole lot more people than just Jews, something that doesn't get talked about as much) has been mentioned quite a bit, and probably is in the back of the public mind. However, to say that the figure of 5.5 million is intentionally bandied about to subliminally be connected with the Jewish Holocaust doesn't hold water. The number 5.5 million is (sadly) not static. What about last year, or the year before? Those numbers of abortion deaths weren't approaching six million (again, sadly - yet). It would seem to me, then, that the Iraq/abortion counter thing couldn't be some sort of nasty neocon anti-choicer conspiracy to equate abortion deaths still occuring to a tragic, but static, number of Jewish Holocaust victims. The argument that pro-lifers are using semitics...er...semantics to stir up emotions doesn't seem to fly.
As far as using death numbers to whip up emotions, have some not used Americans and/or Iraqis killed in Iraq to get emotional responses at the expense of reason? Exactly what you are saying is wrong about the counter featured in the original post.
My earlier comment does compare the grim results of our nation’s wars with the even more grim results of our culture’s “war” on itself. I would venture to say that many of those killed in our wars might have considered themselves to have given their lives for the betterment of the nation and to protect others. I do wonder if those same war dead would consider the deaths of American children through abortion (even if only %1 of the abortions that have happened in the U.S. Are counted as children [and do you really think statistically that would be the case?] that's still a lot of people) to be to the betterment of the nation? Also, I wonder if those same war dead would find this comparison insulting and/or emotionally driven themselves, or maybe since many of them were willing to give so much to protect American kids, maybe they might find the killing of American kids through abortion itself to be the insult to them? I'd like to know what those killed in our wars might find to be based on and pandering to base emotions? For that matter, I'd like to ask those Holocaust victims what they think.

Click here and scroll down to the pie chart. It says that about 60% of all abortions occur before 9 weeks of pregnancy. Let's assume for argument that every last one of them are blastocysts. 40% of 5.5 million is 2.2 million.

Now that we've done this little dance, we're back to the exact same issue from the original posting. None of your "but what's the real number" straw man stuffing has changed that one iota. So now that I've covered that, I'm hoping for a response that actually, y'know, addresses the subject.

Doug,

"It says that about 60% of all abortions occur before 9 weeks of pregnancy. Let's assume for argument that every last one of them are blastocysts. 40% of 5.5 million is 2.2 million."

Alright, if I assume this, I'd say that 5.5 million is a huge exaggeration (by 60%). Therefore, a misleading stat like this should not appear on any reputable blog.

"Now that we've done this little dance, we're back to the exact same issue from the original posting."

The abortion issue? I'd be happy to speak about this with you. I'll start. What criteria is used to determine when a blastocyst becomes a person? Do you think a person comes into being at the moment of conception? If so, why?

Plodon,

"The number 5.5 million is (sadly) not static. What about last year, or the year before?"

Isn't this the same appeal to emotion that the stat is trying to make? That it is an ongoing atrocity on a scale comparable to holocaust numbers? You've already compared the stat to deaths in all American wars. So, why not the holocaust as well?

"However, to say that the figure of 5.5 million is intentionally bandied about to subliminally be connected with the Jewish Holocaust doesn't hold water."

I think it does. I've often heard conservatives bemoan abortion as another holocaust.

"As far as using death numbers to whip up emotions, have some not used Americans and/or Iraqis killed in Iraq to get emotional responses at the expense of reason?"

Probably, but I haven't. Also, I can verify 3,519 (as of today) American deaths in Iraq since the war began. Are you as confident in the 5.5 million figure? So, even if 3,519 is used as an emotional appeal, at least it's an actual number that is not exaggerated. Can you say the same about the 5.5 million stat? I doubt it. If one is going to appeal to emotion for the "pro-life" cause, at least be accurate.

Sir, I see you have no intent of addressing the issue of perspective raised in the original post. Either that, or you have not idea what the intent was.

Before I address that...

I understand that you don't consider all of those 5.5 million to be persons, which is why, for you, I defined is as not living the normal life expectancy were it not for abortion / war. I consider the full amount when determining how many fewer people would be living today were it not for abortion. Whether or not you or anyone else consider them persons is, actually, immaterial. They would have been alive, or a vast majority of them, but for being aborted.

Aside from that, I even met you on your terms, coming up with the 2.2 million number. But, as with all your previous responses, you completely ignore the main point. Instead, in your 5th response to this post, you have yet to mention the subject of perspective, and instead demonstrate how badly you missed the point, and, again, quibble over whether the abortion number are way, way, way, way, way bigger than the war dead, or if they're just way, way, way bigger.

A distinction without a difference.

Let me spell it out for you as simply as I can, and on your terms: Anti-war folks say killing is bad. They use the number of US war dead in Iraq as an example of why we should abandon Iraq. Therefore, given that the number of deaths due to abortion is over 2 orders of magnitude larger than that, it puts into perspective their commitment to decreased deaths.

This exchange shows either your disingenuousness or your lack of reading comprehension.

"Now that we've done this little dance, we're back to the exact same issue from the original posting."

The abortion issue? I'd be happy to speak about this with you.

If you'd actually read that rather short post, you'd know the issue I was talking about. Unless you have it figured out by now, this is my last response to you.

"They would have been alive, or a vast majority of them, but for being aborted."

To me, this position is irrelevant. Every sperm and every passed egg during a woman's menstrual cycle is a potential person who would have been alive, but for circumstance. I don't see "pro-lifers" mourning sperm and eggs though. Well, unless they are Catholics.

"Aside from that, I even met you on your terms, coming up with the 2.2 million number."

As I said before, you simply pulled this number out of your... out of thin air. Engaging you in a conversation based upon a stat you just conjured up would be fruitless, wouldn't it? It's pure sophistry.

"...you completely ignore the main point."

My point is, and has been, that I question the stat of 5.5 million "American Children" aborted in approximately the last 4 years. Simple. If you want to change the subject, thats your prerogative, but please don't expect me to play along if I think the gist of the original post is meaningless. I am more concerned about the statistical misrepresentation of fact to appeal to emotion.

"...given that the number of deaths due to abortion is over 2 orders of magnitude larger than that, it puts into perspective their commitment to decreased deaths."

Frankly, so what? I am not concerned with appeals to emotion from either liberals or conservatives. I have been only concerned about the veracity of the stats being quoted. Just so we understand each other, I am not making a political criticism. I am making an empirical one.

"Anti-war folks say killing is bad."

I'd venture most people think this, not just "anti-war folks."

"They use the number of US war dead in Iraq as an example of why we should abandon Iraq."

If you want to make an omelet, you've got to break some eggs. 3,500 isn't that many lives, comparatively speaking, right? Look at plodon's war figures to verify. Oh, but 5.5 million; different story. It's a holocaust of little babies, is it not? That's the appeal.

"Aside from that, I even met you on your terms, coming up with the 2.2 million number."

As I said before, you simply pulled this number out of your... out of thin air.

Obviously, you did not click on the link to the source I cited for that number. Misrepresent my position, repeatedly, and we can go no further.

"Let's assume for argument that every last one of them are blastocysts. 40% of 5.5 million is 2.2 million."

You said, assume. So, how am I misrepresenting your position when 2.2 million is merely an assumption? Your assumption. An assumption you are asking me to go along with even though I don't give that number any credence.

"Misrepresent my position, repeatedly, and we can go no further."

I've already expressed my feelings on the 5.5 million statistic. If you have nothing further to say, that's fine, we'll leave it here, if that's alright with you?

"Let's assume for argument that every last one of them are blastocysts. 40% of 5.5 million is 2.2 million."

You said, assume. So, how am I misrepresenting your position when 2.2 million is merely an assumption? Your assumption. An assumption you are asking me to go along with even though I don't give that number any credence.

"Misrepresent my position, repeatedly, and we can go no further."

I've already expressed my feelings on the 5.5 million statistic. If you have nothing further to say, that's fine. We'll leave it here. If, that's alright with you?

My apologies for the double post. That was an accident.

Indeed, you didn't check my source.

The assumption works in your favor. The actual number is likely higher, but since the research stats only shows what percentage of abortions are done prior to 9 weeks (60%), I just went and gave you the whole 60% to you. I eliminated 60% of the 5.5 million in deference to your viewpoint on abortion and personhood.

If that still isn't enough for you, then there's nothing else to say.

If you don't give that research any credence, we have no basis for discussion.

I thought you wanted to argue my original point with a lower abortion number. But all you have to offer is that I don't know the precise number that would agree with your position on abortion. Big deal. The original number does agree with my viewpoint. It still doesn't say anything about my original point.

"The assumption works in your favor."

No. I just see assumptions as irrelevant.

"I thought you wanted to argue my original point with a lower abortion number."

Nope. I keep telling you and you keep not listening, I simply think 5.5 million is an exaggeration meant to appeal to emotion. Conservatives are making the same appeal to emotion as liberals who point out 3,500 Americans soldiers have died. The only difference is that your post turns it into a kind of a pissing match to see who can come up with the bigger atrocity. Conservatives say, "Oh, lookie here. 5.5 billion innocent cute babies have died in a horrible baby holocaust while only 3,500 soldiers have died in Iraq. Ohhh see, we have the bigger body count therefore those who cite 3,500 soldiers dead are of little consequence comparatively speaking." None of this on either side really addresses the issues, does it? Plodon actually got this right away but it seems you are having real difficulty with this body count pissing match concept. Maybe I'll have more luck communicating on other posts.

- Cin